Stores are hiring for seasonal help. Get off the streets and your backsides and look for a job! No one said that life is a free lunch! But before you leave, clean up your mess!

people that vote yes do not have a clue, tell us why you voted yes

These OWS clowns need to take a shower and get a job.

What they don't understand is that the Wall Street investment bankers off shored American jobs as a response to the CALPERS of the world demanding more return on their investments to fund the actuarially unsustainable programs they had secured in bargaining. So they really ought to be occupying elsewhere.

This is more than just blocking traffic...this is about harassing children and their parents on their way to school, disrupting the real 99%er who have small business in the area and have had to lay off employees and lost well into the 6 figures in revenue, sexual assault, robbery, destruction of property, the list goes on. There are many men and women who work on Wall Street because they occupy jobs, occupy taking care of their families.

The idea of protest is supposed to be inconvenient and disruptive. Many of the men and women that work on Wall Street do so for greed without concious. The amount of productivity yielded from the financial industry is negligible. It ingratiates itself to amass wealth at the sake of all others, the fact those chickens are coming home to roost prompted by what could be a lost generation should not be a surprise. Your myopia regarding the voices of these folk sounds fighteningly familiar to those who opposed the college students protesting the Vietnam War. While I'm not making comparisons to the causes, certainly the activity of the voices is to be commended.

listen up Morris County, you'll just don't get it . The OWC needs to march on Washington(eventually), to wake up Congress to do whst they were elected to do. compromise not polarization should resolve 2 wars, economic devastation, campaign funding, reliance on lobbyists, bills that favor incumbency, fragile environmentand infrastructue, outsourcing jobs and stagnating ingenuity FEAR to take a risk,etc...OWS certainly needs to do more!!!

Though some indeed are without paid work, many OWSers are employed, in fact. Most of the demonstrators did/do not sleep in Zuccotti Park; they show up on weekends and on off hours to speak their piece against Wall Street and what they call corporate greed.

Here are the stats so far: Murder 2, Rapes 10+, public masturbation 3+, indecent exposure to children 5+, suicides, 1, shooter at White House, 1, Arson, 2 (damages in excess of $10M), thefts, 500+ As for where these stats come from they come from, yes...Fox, The Denver Post, Gawker, Oregon Live, Reuters, ABC news, NY Post, Madison (WI) Daily and AP

Yes, and those are unfortunate to be sure. Even Mayor Bloomberg will tell you, though, that there is no proof that OWSers committed any of those crimes. If anyone from the demonstration is involved, it is, according to law enforcement I interviewed on the scene, "a very small minority." During my two extended visits to the lower Manhattan protest site, I have been assured repeatedly by police officers at Zuccotti Park and by the NYC mayor's office that the "vast" (their word) majority of OWSers are not involved with bad behavior of that sort.

You want a wow? You attributed the white house shooter to OWS. Wow.

From ABC News story, "U.S. Park police say Ortega may have spent time blending in with Occupy D.C. protesters."

OWS is becoming a cover for many who just want to commit crimes, including murder, rape and yes, assassination!

Yeah Larry, as charming as ever, I did attribute it to OWS...the DC group to be precise...and yeah, these guys are charmers! Shame on those 4 year olds trying to go to school! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQExXi00TI4 and Mad beat me to the link, he has been camping at Occupy Wall Street and protesting with them

Larry Bruce is amusingly correct, and Gary's comments are so on the money that they warrant being re-posted: "The idea of protest is supposed to be inconvenient and disruptive. Many of the men and women that work on Wall Street do so for greed without conscience. The amount of productivity yielded from the financial industry is negligible. It ingratiates itself to amass wealth at the sake of all others, the fact those chickens are coming home to roost prompted by what could be a lost generation should not be a surprise. Your myopia regarding the voices of these folk sounds fighteningly familiar to those who opposed the college students protesting the Vietnam War. While I'm not making comparisons to the causes, certainly the activity of the voices is to be commended."

Didn't realize charming was the goal. Thanks. How dare somebody disagree with you. At least you use your real name.

These are just a few of the articles detailing the more than 250 incidents that have resulted in crimes...this does not include those times where mass of people were arrested for blocking traffic, etc. Can't believe Fox controls so many of these outlets!

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/criminal_occupation_oh3CnKANUqYHrGPCaZaLRK
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/132064518.html
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/occupiers_terrorize_us_eatery_o4dKzxi3n03WyJWAJu4AhO
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/occupy-la-five-charged-with-crimes.html
http://bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/2011_1023drug_vandalism_arrests_at_occupy_boston
http://www.gazette.com/articles/arson-127903-fire-collins.html

What I find interesting is the ancedotal information Ms. McCulloch seems to have made the focus of her disconcert. I would ask the following questions in relationship to her observations:
1) First and foremost, do these concerns supercede or otherwise mitigate what tantamounts to a suppression of 1st Ammendment right?
2) How does the incident rate of these crimes compare to the expected average as whole without the protesting, marginally up or down?
3) If you assume a few bad apples in the bunch, do you by association indict the greater population? If so, I would expect the same agressive stance towards other institutions (i.e. Eliminate PSU and the Catholic church since they clearly have systemic problems, how about any politician involved in a criminal activity should all of Nixon's personnel been eradicated)

I must admit I'm a bit dubious of your concern for the innocent as opposed to your disdain for the movement in general.

Nice summary by Gary. "Dubious" the key word. Also I'm guessing the people on the other side of this would have no problem with Nixon.

1st Amendment rights do not supercede property rights. OWS has no right to squat in a park that is to be open to the entire public.

Marina Kennedy
As a mother of young adult and adult children who are also trying to build on their educations and careers, I am puzzled by the young people who are spending so much time on the front of OWS. I might suggest they take their energies in a totally different direction. Perhaps collaborate to develop sustainable temporary housing for the many people who are left homeless as a result of natural disasters and our economy.
Yes, it's hard to get a job, but working entry level within a system to make improvements can be productive, especially if you believe in a cause.
I would like to see the energy spent OWS redirected to tutoring in our urban centers,
feeding and sheltering the homeless, and making improvements in our environment

I would like the taxes that GE paid on the 14 billion profit redirected to tutoring in our urban centers, feeding and sheltering the homeless and making improvements in our environment. and when they are done I would like to see the trillions applied to Iraq and Afghanistan re applied in the same way. Oh, but then again it is not supposed to work that way. Marina , nice that you kids think only of themselves developing themselves, it is also nice that some of these folks are thinking beyond themselves for causes that they espouse.

The issue with passive civil obedience is that in the last 20 years that's only rendered the largest wealth gap in US since the Golden Era of the early 1900's. These young people are not asking for a handout, what they are asking is that riches of the few be allocated more broadly for a sustainable economy. A bimodal distribution of wealth is never good for a society whether it be the monarchies of Europe, the depots of the Middle East, or the financiers of US.

People seem to like to call it socialism when the concept of a redistribution of wealth extends from the fortunate to the less forturnate, but when the largesse benefits the few at the sake of the many then it's just business. Irrespective of whether or not you approve of the tactics being used by OWS you must concede their point is legitimate. The statistics bear that out.

That said, I do agree with concept of using their resources for the aforementioned ideas that would require government susidy (unless Wall Street is willing to take up the financing) and my guess is that would not be palatable to those against OWS.

You know Larry, charming was the wrong word..polite discourse is what I would expect and your immediate response to my comment was to say"Fox News!" as though nothing I said was based in accuracy. You have indicated I should not expect that with you, noted.

Gary, do you really consider these things flukes and the same as a regular day in the city? Check with the main city halls in St. Louis, Chicago, NYC, Oakland and look at the current crime rates and stats for what is going on now, it is a dramatic uptick. I do support people expressing themselves but weigh that against the cost those around them. The protesting is not free.....the tax payers of the cities and states involved are paying hefty bills for the increased police presence, Emergency Care and clean up.
The impact of these costs, disruption of businesses are a burden and are at least as important as the protestors rights. They can protest in many ways to express themselves without increasing this burden, their rights are not surpressed.

As mentioned, multiple cities (available by googling) have posted the dramatic increase in incidents and costs.

A few bad apples is one thing, but this is far beyond. Neither PSU or the Catholic church are suggesting that addressing those issues and crimes are infringing on their free speech.

Be as dubious as you wish.

I would like to know why those who feel entitled to taxpayer money are not considered greedy. As a taxpayer, I have earned every penny. They are the fruit of my labor or my risk in an investment. No one is entitled to money I have earned. It is my personal choice to give my time and money to various charities, which I gladly do. I would hope others would do the same.

Here’s the reality…
Our Federal Debt is now over $15,000,000,000,000.00. Can’t get your head around all those zeros? Here it is visualized: http://usdebt.kleptocracy.us/ It is 100% of GDP. We no longer have money to spend on programs that are not enumerated in the Constitution. OWS wants even more money spent, but there is no more. Where are we going to get the money from? Go to IRS website. You can download an excel spreadsheet for the 2009 tax year (it’s the last year the Senate passed a budget). Add up all the income over $200,000. It comes to $1.9 Trillion. Our budget deficit that year was $1.4 Trillion. So, we can take 100% of the income from “the rich” and just cover the deficit with not much left over to pay off some of our debt. But of course these same rich were already paying around 33-38%, so we can only grab another 62-67%. That will leave us short. But wait! They are a lot of wealthy that don’t make an income so they pay very little in taxes. Let’s confiscate 100% of the wealth from the 2009 Fortune 400 list. It’s equal to $1.27 Trillion. We’ll probably be able to cover that deficit now. But what do we do for next year? And how do we pay off some of our debt? Where are we going to get all this money from now that we have taken it all from “the rich”? Our country is in financial trouble. The answer is not for the Federal Government to spend more; it’s to spend much, much less.

"Programs that are not enumerated in the constitution". Hard to get past that and read the rest of the post.

Paraphrasing Matt Taibbi: For all of those who say the protesters have it wrong, and don't really have a cause worth causing public unrest over, consider this story...
Last week, a federal judge in Mississippi sentenced a mother of two to 3 years in federal prison for lying on a government application in order to obtain food stamps.
Apparently in this country you become ineligible to eat if you have a record of criminal drug offenses. Since McLemore had four drug convictions in her past, she was ineligible to receive food stamps, so she lied about her past in order to feed her two children. Judging from the poll results to the Patch's question, most readers would prefer to get shafted for billions of dollars by Wall St than for around $4,000 by a ne'er do well who still has cares enough to feed her kids.

Why is this "Occupy Wall Street?" How about Occupy Pro Sports Venues for ripping fans off? How about Occupy Hollywood Studios for ridiculous movie ticket prices, licensing deals, product tie-ins, and actor salaries?

I've been watching this board over the last few days and having voted Yes early on, which is overwhelmingly the majority, I take issue w people infringing on the rights of others to advance their cause.

Everyone has the right to assemble and the freedom of speech. And I agree that applies to OWS.

"Shut down Wall Street". Well My husband commutes to the financial district each day, and no he is not an investment banker. And so do many other commuters from Madison. What gives OWS the right to try and "shut down" the businesses that feed our children? We all work hard and are taxed heavily, and for every dollar we send to Trenton, we get back less than 1 penny. I believe in charities and helping those less fortunate and I certainly believe that people who are fortunate should being giving back, as our family does. But I also believe that people tend to take advantage of assistance programs. Then many of the assistance programs, in an effort to even the playing field, tend to go to opposite extremes. Take a look at the Abbott districts for an example. Meanwhile we go further and further into debt. Tell me, where does it all end?

Karin - Suggest you read the book Mr. Galgano suggested above and see if you still have such a right wing attitude on the issue.

Now they are trying to shut down the subways...... someone please tell them the 1% don't ride the subways'

They did not "shut down" the subways, but they did flood the subways with demonstrators who seized the planned opportunity to make themselves heard. This movement is about the overwhelming power of Wall Street and large corporations—something the political establishment and most media have long ignored -- and the rapidly declining opportunities that Americans face to make it on their own. This is not the America I grew up in, and I fear for my younger family members. Actually, in the present economic system, I fear for all children's futures. Everything has come down to serving the bottom line, and that's not healthy for families.

>>But the movement goes far beyond naming the problem. This Changes Everything shows how the movement is shifting the way people view themselves and the world, the kind of society they believe is possible, and their own involvement in creating a society that works for the 99% rather than just the 1%.

I find the protesting to be absolutely annoying. I'm not happy with some stuff but I'm not going to interupt other peoples lives and cause problems 'cause I'm not happy with some stuff. I believe in free speech but this has gone on way too long. Some protestors have hurt police officers which is uncalled for. Also there have been protestors yelling at people who work for a living which is also absolutely uncalled for.

You get the sense that all the yes voters would have opposed the Revolutionary war as well. Their basic argument is that " I'm doing fine, so the hell with you." They generally ignore the vast amount of government money they have recieved starting with a free public education and government programs that they benefit from. They think the amassing of wealth at the top of the food chain is the result of those people working hard and being honest. That myth has been shown for what it is. Greed drove the housing crisis and it wasn't the greed of someone wanting to buy a home. It was the greed of the mortgage brokers and banks followed by the creation of new unregulated financial devices that were junk and sold over and over again after being rated by crooked ratings agencies as AAA. Wall St. should be occupied by prosecutors and an army of law enforcement but since no one was held accountable you have regular citizens attempting to influence the Law Enforcement agencies to do their job.

I don't ordinarily get involved in blogs because they often resort to name-calling, accusations & blatant misrepresentation of facts. However, this stream has been pretty good - I thank everyone who has expressed himself thoughtfully & without judgment. The Occupy Movement asks where is our country going & how can we ensure fairness, opportunity, a life-supporting environment, the health & well-being of our families? I'm sure we can agree that "we got trouble", our elected leadership is dysfunctional & our earnings don't go as far as they used to. I hope you will join our event today from 2 - 4 pm. We are coming together to share ideas with our neighbors & show local politicians what our priorities are:● A fair tax structure
● Taking big money out of politics ● Funding for permanent flood control ● Investing in public education ● Student debt reform ● Jobs, not cuts - Jobs for Vets! ● Accountability for Wall Street. Planned speakers as well as an open mic for all. Scheduled speakers to date are: Don Leich & Dianne Douthat, Wayne Residents, Vic DeLuca (Mayor of Maplewood), Mike Sidoti, VP, Industrial Union Council, Madelyn Hoffman, Executive Director, NJ Peace Action Ann Rea, Electoral Reform Group, BlueWaveNJ. WHERE: Veterans Memorial flag pole in front of the Wayne Municipal Complex, 475 Valley Rd, Wayne. Parking lot accessible from Nellis Drive http://waynetownship.com/directions.htm. LABOR DONATED.

If the OWS supporters were serious, if they had cojones, they'd take a page from the Tea Party Playbook:
http://helenair.com/news/article_cfd1e6b6-46f7-11e0-997e-001cc4c002e0.html

@Jo - not a bad point about Mike's joking but even I figured it out when he pointed out that the second amendment was the most important, that's why it came after the First. Saving the dogs a tough day wasn't bad either.

Karin -- I very much share your problem with people infringing on the rights of others to advance their cause, but I have come to understand that this cause -- the greater good of all Americans --is bigger than any of us. And yes, I have seen the movie "too big to fail." I'm not in a position to know if the U.S. could have survived without the bailouts. But I think that the bank bailouts are particularly egregious and grating because 1. they were not split up & reorganized after the bailout, 2. the very few embarrassingly weak regulations passed afterward will not prevent another disaster, 3. almost no perpetrator was held accountable, and worst of all, 4. Main St victims didn't get the same preferential treatment, so many of the 99% are suffering while Wall St glides along freely, business as usual ... I've been to #OWS several times (including Thursday & crossing the Bridge), talked with many of the Occupiers, participated in their trainings in the Atrium, gone to GA, read their site blogs, and much about the Occupations. Believe me: the clothes belie their surgical-precision focus & phenomenal organization. You and I wouldn't be in business suits if we were living there. They are dead serious. Ignore the fringe, which are a result of OW's generous inclusivity. After all, Zuccotti Park is a public space and the occupiers treat it as such.

Mikey D

6:32pm on Friday, November 18, 2011

I'd LOVE for someone to explain the mechanics of "allocating wealth more broadly." Someone asking me for a check? Police (who've been spit on and slashed during OWS) coming to take my possessions? Or is it a little more passive?

Waiting eagerly for the answer.....

Still waiting.

Mr wells - in the car without a dictionary - is "sycophant" a term of affection?
Nixon, wow. Looks like we'll be right back where we started any minute now.

Sycophant means someone who follows a leader blindly and without question. And yes, while my 1972 endorsement of Nixon was lukewarm, ending with something like "reluctantly we conclude that his re-election is advisable," it was still a question of who he was running against. And since Corzine wasn't a viable choice for re-election in 2009, had, say, Tom Kean Sr. run against him, I would definitely have supported him. But as it was I voted for Daggett...similar to how I voted for John Anderson in the '80 presidential election. We HAVE to look beyond the two party system. Today, what undercuts the right wing's credibility is its inability to admit that their candidates who are running for the presidency are a collective national embarrassment. Mind you, I'm not talking about their political stands but their laugh-inducing and transparent incompetence. I actually KNOW someone who donated $250 to Herman Cain -- and STILL defends it. This past week things reached a nadir when a few of these guys were actually BOASTING about their lack of knowledge! Rachel Maddow has been the most incisive voice I've heard dissecting this motley crew as unqualified -- and expsoing the Herman Cain Art Project. For those not familiar, it's well worth checking out her website...start with http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/. For those of you who still think they're geniuses with the solutions we need, PLEASE by all means share your wisdom with the rest of us.

I'm on neither side of this one but let me make on thing clear. The definition of sycophant is a "servile self-seeking flatterer". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sycophant

Yes, and the first definition of "servile" is " too willing to agree with somebody or to do anything, however demeaning, that somebody wants." One encompasses the other.

Larry, I'm so happy that you and your friends are amused by commonality between you and Steve. I even respect the fact you can admit to it. Oh and don't let his support of Nixon destroy the relationship. Nobody agrees w anybody on everything!

As for the republican candidates, I'm still at a loss. At the last presidential primary, I voted for Hillary. I knew the GOP didn't have a chance of winning and I didn't want Obama. You see living in NJ, by the time we get to vote, several candidates have disappeared from the ballot, bc they do so poorly in other states. So I'm more likely to wait and see what slim pickings are left after the major caucuses.

Quite honestly, it's only been a little more than a year since I started to become interested in politics and I must admit now I'm fascinated by it. It's beats reality TV.

Mikey D

6:32pm on Friday, November 18, 2011

I'd LOVE for someone to explain the mechanics of "allocating wealth more broadly." Someone asking me for a check? Police (who've been spit on and slashed during OWS) coming to take my possessions? Or is it a little more passive?

Waiting eagerly for the answer.....

Still waiting.

Again..............

Marina, I am very sensitive to any effects on small businesses, and I advocate for them in my own neighborhood. We must keep this conversation in perspective: in NYC, some businesses are booming due to the occupation & maybe some have suffered temporarily. The same thing happens during road construction, but they deal with it for the future common good. And yes, worker traffic is sometimes impeded, but the same thing happens during parades & when notables etc visit the city. Same argument for extra sanitation & other employees. I think you get my point? Any clashing with police, I'm sorry to say, has been provoked by the police themselves - the occupiers are totally dedicated to nonviolent revolution a la Gandhian principles. Unfortunately since 9/11, harsh military tactics are being employed on citizens - the implication has not gone unnoticed in civil rights discussion, and it is shocking in the eyes of Europe. I don't demand the occupiers have a responsibility to create a unified message (although they have). And since political leaders are mostly bought, it's not as simple as selecting the right leaders. OWS is calling for public funding of campaigns. It's up to us, the citizens, to initiate change in our municipalities. It is not the responsibility of a few thousand occupiers. Think of them as ringing the alarm bell when the city is on fire.

Marina - Perhaps you do, but I don't doubt that will be their next stage. But I wouldn't ask them to do more than we would expect of ourselves. This is a good time for us all to examine what each of us can do. Gosh, most of them are young enough to be my grandchildren. What were you doing when you were 20, 25? (No need to answer that). I am very grateful for their courage, their willingness to put themselves out there. It's not easy at all.

Marina - I applaud you for going beyond your own needs to extend help to others, when it would be very easy to justify not doing so. I've learned that there are many different kinds of "ministries" -- from charity, to 1-on-1 assisting, to working in social services, to advocacy, to protest, and more. We are all good at different things. It's just important to do SOMETHING toward making people's lives better. It's a little like a potluck: with enough people bringing a dish, the buffet table always turns out fulfilling.

This video says it all - http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-november-16-2011/occupy-wall-street-divided

I'm not sure how you interpreted the Samantha Bee segment (which I thought was hysterical), but I hope it didn't "prove" some negative ideas you may have. It was a comedy skit, and it had some truth in it (as good comedy does). Since I've been there a few times (not to sleep, just to engage), I'd be glad to give you some first-hand observations.

Meredith (I would have preferred to add this as a Reply, but couldn't find your comment when I went to the Patch site) -
I don't talk in "isms", and I have no allegiance to any. There are as many interpretations of them as those who use them. I feel they are just a convenient way to put someone's views in some kind of box, which short-circuits dialogue. Your "over-sized govt" argument has some merit, but is a red herring in this whole Occupy discussion. It's not the size that has created our current systemic problems - it's the fact that it has been corrupted. Look around & you'll find several nations with small, yet corrupt, governments. My purpose & goal is to find ways to fix govt so that it works for everyone's benefit. One sign of a civilized, advanced and healthy society is a generous abundance of compassion & caring. There are some things that just one person can't accomplish alone. I invite you to evolve to a higher plain.

Is it fair you were born like this? No! You're a lean, mean, fighting machine !!

Jo,
So don't call it an ism. Redistributon of private property by government force is not what this country needs more of. Compassion & caring can only come from individuals not bureaucracies. Sometimes the compassionate thing is for people to hit rock bottom. I don't believe it is compassionate to enable people's dysfunction.

We fix this country by becoming better individuals. Our system has become corrupted because individuals are less virtuous. Because of the large size of the government, the corruption is harder to see and when seen, hard to stop. Society isn't made better by passing more laws because those who are not good don't obey the laws or find a legal way around it.

Meredith - who mentioned anything about "redistribution of private property by government force"? I sure didn't, & I don't think it's been mentioned in this whole blog. But the twisted thing is that it has already happened: over the last 30-40 years, loosened regulations, little accountability & tax favoritism for Wall St, is exactly how the middle class had their property stripped away from them. I mean houses, pensions, investments, personal security. You seem to be OK with charitable govt programs for Wall St, but not for the 99%... U spoke of people's dysfunction, their being less virtuous etc. That is another discussion (which I'd be willing to have another time). Don't you wonder why 1% of Americans own 40% of the wealth? This is a throwback to the late 19th century - early 20th. A wonderful middle class was created after WWII, and everybody had plenty (even the rich), but that has ended. No democracy can survive without a middle class. And THAT is my concern... that our current economic & financial system, which rewards money makers over societal health, has created a self-destructive condition that will affect even you.

There apears to be questions regarding income. Here's an idea. Increase long term capital gains to 25%, let Bush tax cuts expire, remove $106K limit on payroll tax, increase SS age to 68 from 67, implement a windfall profit for any hedge fund operating with over $50M in assets, employ a transaction fee of $0.0001 on all trades, eliminate corporate loop hole allowing individuals to shelter income on a tax-deferred basis (not 401k, but actual income...and yes it does exist). How's that for a start all you who want ideas where to get $$$.

And while we're at it, just to show I'm not a partisian but someone who's pragmactic. I would like to see the tax code redrawn so that it follows the the same distribution pattern as revenue, preferrably a Chi-Squared distribution.

I would like to recommend a book written by David Korten: Agenda for a New Economy. It's not a hard read, but it presents many profound concepts & examines relationships. Our economic system is so broken that, although we need short term fixes just to survive (like an overhall of our tax system & getting Wall St under control), it is essential we start looking at the greater picture. Agenda for a New Economy is not a money book, but a healthy living systems book.
A Wonderful Thanksgiving to All. But please, don't thank the founders who become the first Americans to invade other countries.

Let me try it this way FY2012 Budget is approx. $3.7T broken up into these major categories: Medicare-$851B, SS-$740B, Def-$629B, Domestic Spending-$740B, Income Security-$518B, and Interest-$220B. In FY2012 they expect approximation $2.6T in revenues yielding $1.1T in deficit. Given Medicare, SS, and Interest are mandatory payments that leaves us with $1.8T to close the deficit of $1.1T.

So, if we eliminate the entire Federal Gov't and ALL subsistence to needy we get to your proposed "apples". Is that what you're advocating Clarke? Please, enlighten.

If you note in my original post I at least offered up a restructure of Medicare and SS in concert with other revenue increases.

Fair enough. So what are you proposing?

Read my previous post I gave a litany of ideas....but here it goes again...

There apears to be questions regarding income. Here's an idea. Increase long term capital gains to 25%, let Bush tax cuts expire, remove $106K limit on payroll tax, increase SS age to 68 from 67, implement a windfall profit for any hedge fund operating with over $50M in assets, employ a transaction fee of $0.0001 on all trades, eliminate corporate loop hole allowing individuals to shelter income on a tax-deferred basis (not 401k, but actual income...and yes it does exist). How's that for a start all you who want ideas where to get $$$.

And while we're at it, just to show I'm not a partisian but someone who's pragmactic. I would like to see the tax code redrawn so that it follows the the same distribution pattern as revenue, preferrably a Chi-Squared distribution.

First, in the spirit of full disclosure, while I originally registered as a Republican (and I must admit recieved my USAFA appointment from Jesse Helms) I am firmly entrenched with the Democrats (the fact I'm an Atheist in support of Gay Marriage and open service in the military makes me an anathema to "the Right"). Frum I would contend is the right of center version of my belief structure although I'm fairly sure (as the article you state implies) people on "the right" would consider him liberal. I've long advocated (as does my President *proud Obama supporter*) ALL parties have to contribute to the mess we're in right now. That means older Americans will see less Medicare/SS benefits than previous, Earned Income Tax may have to go for at least some period of time, Revenues must come from all parties but skewed towards higher income (especially those with a 8-figure wealth structures).

O

As a self employed individual, my effective tax rate for federal and state is 40%, I think it would be "fair" if everyone paid the same effective rate. Government wants to waste 40% of what I make, they should waste 40% of what you make.